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  • Ink is fine for small everyday prints but when lines solidify and ink jets clog and heads burn up... That's when the toner beasts will still be rolling with their glossy toner printed feel.

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  • Where is the main point of advantage for comparison ?

    - fixed print heads

    - 70 PPM on A3

    - ink vs toner vs PDF ?

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  • It took me 3 years to find and dumpster every inkjet at the school. Unless I wake up and find out ink is not obscenely expensive any more, ain’t happening here.

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  • Nope, the new style memjet/pagewide printers are very different to the old style inkjet printers. They come with a different set of challenges, our first try with one had a failed print head at 170K (replaced under warranty), but that's not going to happen in a high volume print environment like these MFP's and printers can handle.

    LittleITguy wrote:

    Ink is fine for small everyday prints but when lines solidify and ink jets clog and heads burn up... That's when the toner beasts will still be rolling with their glossy toner printed feel.

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  • The speed and cost of consumables is really REALLY impressive compared to CURRENT laser/toner based devices. I purchased two MFP 774DN's late last year, for really edge condition situations, and the competition was against color laser copier/MFP's. The consumables cost and crummy local support options made it a good fit for us. On the other hand, I have five large color copiers and eight small color copiers at our main office, I wiped out 14 printers with the latter group. As with so many things, it all depends, and don't assume laser tech won't improve for cost and performance.

    adrian_ych wrote:

    Where is the main point of advantage for comparison ?

    - fixed print heads

    - 70 PPM on A3

    - ink vs toner vs PDF ?

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  • adrian_ych wrote:

    Where is the main point of advantage for comparison ?

    - fixed print heads

    - 70 PPM on A3

    - ink vs toner vs PDF ?

    To clarify on print speeds. The HP Pagewides are currently rated at around 70ppm, Canon 80 ppm and Epson 100ppm, This based on letter sized,. My statement was simply that they printers would handle A3, as this is a selling point that copier companies still hammer on, even though most units we see in the field have less than 1000 pages of 11x17 after 5 years.

    My personal vote is 3-5 years and at that point roughly 60% of all office pages will be ink. This switch driven by how quiet Pagewide ink printers are, the much lower shipping cost on supplies compared to Laser and companies trying to reduce energy use in the office. For instance the Epson T858 black ink cartridge prints 50k pages, printer ships with 2 cartridges so 100k black pages in the box. Replacements run around $500 retail so penny a page, possibly lower on a contract. Very comparable to Laser.

    It was explained to me by an HP engineer that the increase in processing speed and reduced cost of high speed processing has made Pagewide technology possible in a much smaller format than in the past. If you look at all printing done in the world, not including office printing, the lion's share  is ink. Magazines, catalogues, shipping boxes, advertising, it is all printed with ink.

    Office ink will only continue to get better, faster and cheaper.

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  • Unless something has been done about cost of the Ink cartridges, lasers will stil rule given the volument of printing completed here.

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  • Lloyd Graney wrote:

    Unless something has been done about cost of the Ink cartridges, lasers will stil rule given the volument of printing completed here.

    Yes, absolutely. The new generation of business inkjet printers use much cheaper ink, and they come in much larger cartridges (or plastic bags, in some cases). They are much cheaper to run than laser as well, so you can get a definite cost saving, and brighter prints as well. They are also self-cleaning and can deal with blocked nozzles without intervention. There is less waste and they have a lower carbon footprint as well.

    Business inkjet is going to give laser a real challenge over the next few years.

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  • Hmmm, that's a good point, the power consumption profile on the PageWides is a FRACTION of a laser (carbon footprint). And yes, the ink tanks are hilariously heavy. I've actually handed new and empty tanks to folks using the small workgroup 476 printers, just so they can physically assess how much in there really is in them. "Oh, this isn't like my printer at home AT ALL!"

    ICH wrote:

    Lloyd Graney wrote:

    Unless something has been done about cost of the Ink cartridges, lasers will stil rule given the volument of printing completed here.

    Yes, absolutely. The new generation of business inkjet printers use much cheaper ink, and they come in much larger cartridges (or plastic bags, in some cases). They are much cheaper to run than laser as well, so you can get a definite cost saving, and brighter prints as well. They are also self-cleaning and can deal with blocked nozzles without intervention. There is less waste and they have a lower carbon footprint as well.

    Business inkjet is going to give laser a real challenge over the next few years.

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  • Sounds like inkjets have really upped their game and tackled a bunch of the biggest prior limitations.

    As a guy who came out of the printing business (where measurements were thousands per hour), the statistic the HP guy quoted on ink pages dominating is simply a talking point, While I’ve been out of that game for 30 years, the last press we installed would produce 36,000 32 page folded copies in full color per hour, and would eat over 8 football field lengths of paper every minute in the process. But that machine cost around 5 million dollars in 1988 and printed the same 32 pages over and over.

    On the other side of that, it’s impressive to see 6,000 pages an hour out of an office printer. The best sheetfed presses of my era could hit around 12,000 sheets per hour (8 pages per sheet).

    Of course, the comparison fades because the inkjet can crank out 6,000 different pages an hour. This is going to get interesting.

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  • It will be interesting to see how this goes over the next few years

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  • Never, ink is just the latest buzz tech and will fade 73%.

    I think IT pros are just jaded by the Inkjets of yesteryear. I feel a couple of Steve Ballmer (Microsoft CEO, 2000-2014) quotes are appropriate as object lessons:

    • "There's no chance that the iPhone is going to get any significant market share. No chance."
    • "I don't think anyone has done a [tablet] product that I see customers wanting."

    (Taken from https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Steve_Ballmer).

    I like where page-width inkjets are going:

    1. Less power & noise.
    2. Faster print speeds.
    3. Fewer moving parts than lasers (should increase reliability).
    4. Equivalent cost per page.

    I've considered them in the past year but decided to postpone due to not really needing color and supplies/spares availability issues (I live in Venezuela). I'll probably hold off for a generation or two, just to see how the reliability numbers come back.

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  • After reading abowe comments I'm not sure about my answer and thinking deeper, laser printers have problems of their own...
    If consumables drop, print head realibility rises and we can get a decent price on printers, there would be a chance to change from laser.
    Main problem I see in laser are mechanism complexity and power consumption...
    Drawback i see in inkjet is spilled ink... I really don't like the mess that it makes :)

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  • When I posted the ink price last night I grabbed the price from online, but that did not seem right. 

    Correct costing on the 50K page black cartridge for the Epson is 139.00 Canadian, which places the cost of black prints at around a quarter of a cent per page.

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  • And with inkjets you don't risk burning your fingers clearing a paper jam. As they don't use a fuser, they don't need to heat up, so first page out is a lot quicker than a laser, unless you stop the laser from sleeping and pay the electricity bill for keeping the fuser hot.

    And without the heat, you don't need the special laser labels, you can use a much wider range of stationery.
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  • ICH wrote:

    And with inkjets you don't risk burning your fingers clearing a paper jam. As they don't use a fuser, they don't need to heat up, so first page out is a lot quicker than a laser, unless you stop the laser from sleeping and pay the electricity bill for keeping the fuser hot.

    And without the heat, you don't need the special laser labels, you can use a much wider range of stationery.

    The only caution is some media can smear when used with ink. As well, most of the high speed units have dryers that warm a little and are intended to reduce media curl at output. 

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  • That's the thing. I had to answer the first, 'Laser rules'... but it will ultimately come down to each particular use case. In my case, our prints are so irregular that I would really start to wonder about ink life, and printhead clogging. I've trialed a few pagewides, though, and would recommend them to anyone that does more constant printing.

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  • Ink jet will still smear on glossy and fade faster in UV light.

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  • Can't say I'm convinced ink will not clog up like it did before. Major headache and expense. I'm not a believer.

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  • Eventually, the market will decide.

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  • I'd give it a couple years and see how the newer technology lasts in the market.

    It's been a minute since the Designjet 800 / 1050 series, which is the last model of corporate/industrial specialized ink printer I worked with (ASP tech resource for HP). However, ink printing has a bad rap for a reason and will need time to clear it. I voted 6+ simply because of that bad rap, and we aren't even talking about the proliferation of edocs as they continue to make headway into paper-heavy industries like industrial and finance/insurance.

    Our most recently purchased workgroup mono laser printer contract cost-per-page was 2.75 cents per page with full maintenance included (late 2017). Our workgroup printers are generally all older Lexmarks that won't die, but our line production printer (110ppm mono with 100 page stapling / hole punching finisher) and colour workgroup (70-80ppm with 50 page staple finisher) are coming due in the next year or two. Maybe ink will be worth a look to replace those - and I know one local contact who I'll touch base with around then, potentially ;)

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  • Back in 2017,  OP recommended we try the HP Pagewides. Although there have been some funky issues, they seem to be related to the software on the things, not the print tech itself. No clogged heads or anything like that, and in the whole time we have had only a handful of paper jams spread over 6 printers. My only major gripe is that they do not print purple correctly (it looks more like blue), but that seems like something HP should be able to fix... After about 1.5 years of modest use they are still running strong and we save money.  It is hard to say how much though because the previous Xerox copiers/printers were leased and supplied by a service provider at a fixed monthly rate and were way overkill for our needs...

    EDIT: to clarify, obviously I know how much we are saving vs what we paid before. WHat I mean is I don't how much we'd have saved if we had more appropriate equipment before. Our print volume was not enough to justify the gigantic Xerox beasts we were leasing. They were already in place when I got to this job...

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  • The Repairatrooper wrote:

    My statement was simply that they printers would handle A3, as this is a selling point that copier companies still hammer on, even though most units we see in the field have less than 1000 pages of 11x17 after 5 years.

    Agreed, but if I (or my higher-ups) perceive that we need A3 every once in a while, and the SuperPrinter 5000 won't do it, and I don't want to go to Staples or some other print shop, well the SuperPrinter 5000 won't be what I buy. Numbers be damned.

    :/

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  • mmoyles wrote:

    Back in 2017,  OP recommended we try the HP Pagewides. Although there have been some funky issues, they seem to be related to the software on the things, not the print tech itself. No clogged heads or anything like that, and in the whole time we have had only a handful of paper jams spread over 6 printers. My only major gripe is that they do not print purple correctly (it looks more like blue), but that seems like something HP should be able to fix... After about 1.5 years of modest use they are still running strong and we save money.  It is hard to say how much though because the previous Xerox copiers/printers were leased and supplied by a service provider at a fixed monthly rate and were way overkill for our needs...

    EDIT: to clarify, obviously I know how much we are saving vs what we paid before. WHat I mean is I don't how much we'd have saved if we had more appropriate equipment before. Our print volume was not enough to justify the gigantic Xerox beasts we were leasing. They were already in place when I got to this job...

    We have had a few "color" issues with client HP products, laser and ink. Typically ensuring that the firmware is up to date and the drivers are current will resolve many issues. In some cases some programs just do not want to play nice.

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  • There were some interesting things done with wax based printing (it looks like you're loading big coloring crayons into the printer).  Great quality color printing for less than toner or ink.  The downside when we were using it was the inability to print an already wax-printed page through a laser printer (e.g. print letterhead or forms then load into laser printer to be printed again).  I don't see ink taking over unless it gets cheaper than toner.

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  • Ink will not rule again until they figure out smearing issues and cost/weight of ink.

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  • Customers always complained about the noxious odors of phasers. Ink don't stink.

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  • Ethan6123 wrote:

    There were some interesting things done with wax based printing (it looks like you're loading big coloring crayons into the printer).  Great quality color printing for less than toner or ink.  The downside when we were using it was the inability to print an already wax-printed page through a laser printer (e.g. print letterhead or forms then load into laser printer to be printed again).  I don't see ink taking over unless it gets cheaper than toner.

    Epson ink is already way cheaper than toner and even the HP Pagewide A3 is cheaper per page than the HP M775 laser.

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  • I don't care how fast inkjets are becoming, the print quality and durability remains poor by comparison, and the price horrendously high.

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  • Just curious as to the power consumption of the "New" inkjets. my company is looking for a mobile printing solution for 8.5 x 11 plain paper. 

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  • The Repairatrooper wrote:

    Ethan6123 wrote:

    There were some interesting things done with wax based printing (it looks like you're loading big coloring crayons into the printer).  Great quality color printing for less than toner or ink.  The downside when we were using it was the inability to print an already wax-printed page through a laser printer (e.g. print letterhead or forms then load into laser printer to be printed again).  I don't see ink taking over unless it gets cheaper than toner.

    Epson ink is already way cheaper than toner and even the HP Pagewide A3 is cheaper per page than the HP M775 laser.

    That is interesting.  Perhaps toner manufacturers will start cutting their margins to compete.

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  • Our Oce' ColorWave plotter is gumball, I mean, wax based. Great technology for the application, but wide format prints aren't going to be printed over, that's for sure.

    Xerox is still making their thermal wax workgroup printers, aren't they? No where near the cost advantage for consumables that the PageWide printers have, though - and that may be by choice?

    Ethan6123 wrote:

    There were some interesting things done with wax based printing (it looks like you're loading big coloring crayons into the printer).  Great quality color printing for less than toner or ink.  The downside when we were using it was the inability to print an already wax-printed page through a laser printer (e.g. print letterhead or forms then load into laser printer to be printed again).  I don't see ink taking over unless it gets cheaper than toner.

    Unless you have a LOT of space in your mobile arrangements, the PageWide devices aren't going to fit the physical profile even if they fit the power profile. I have Brother PocketJets for a few people that take a briefcase on the plane with them, the rest are trucks with HP mobile OfficeJet 150/200. Consumables are expensive, thermal paper or ink cartridges, but mobile means a LOT of compromises. An HP X451 might be easily powered by an inverter in a truck, but where do you put the dang thing? It's got a huge paper tray!!

    Rhal67 wrote:

    Just curious as to the power consumption of the "New" inkjets. my company is looking for a mobile printing solution for 8.5 x 11 plain paper. 

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  • Rhal67 wrote:

    Just curious as to the power consumption of the "New" inkjets. my company is looking for a mobile printing solution for 8.5 x 11 plain paper. 

    Currently any of the "new" inkjets are not portable, they are designed to sit in one place. At least any of the models that I am familiar with.

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  • Well, given that ink is much more expensive (especially on a per page basis) than toner, I'm gonna say "never".

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  • mnkyCmnkyD0 wrote:

    Well, given that ink is much more expensive (especially on a per page basis) than toner, I'm gonna say "never".

    Not true on these machines, it's actually lower.

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