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  • Spice (70) flagReport
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  • #3 needs a (sic) in the obvious place.

    I see it's been edited, so never mind. :)

    Spice (3) flagReport
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  • My parents still have their fax machine that was used a total of like 10 times before it was unplugged because spam would come to it. It's still sitting on the same shelf unplugged to this day.

    Spice (11) flagReport
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  • The HIPAA argument is freaking ridiculous. A fax laying on top of a printer is somehow more secure than an email? Fax needs to die a brutal and ugly death.

    Spice (54) flagReport
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  • They still require a dedicated phone line that is paid out each month... Cheap seems like a poor reason to me, but adding in the cost of Microsoft exchange server licensing, I can see the bigger picture.

    Spice (9) flagReport
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  • Totally disagree that faxes are secure. 

    Spice (12) flagReport
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  • I pretty much read this as "Secure email scares people".

    Spice (25) flagReport
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  • ghijkmnop wrote:

    #3 needs a (sic) in the obvious place.

    I see it's been edited, so never mind. :)

    Yea, thanks for the note. I corrected that thanks to your comment.
    Spice (2) flagReport
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  • Rockn wrote:

    The HIPAA argument is freaking ridiculous. A fax laying on top of a printer is somehow more secure than an email? Fax needs to die a brutal and ugly death.

    Why not? The printer isn't in a public location. If you can get behind the desk at the doctors, there's plenty of info back there beyond one paper on a printer. 
    Spice (12) flagReport
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  • Peter (Spiceworks) wrote:

    10 reasons fax refuses to die (as told by IT professionals)

    I don't think it pros said they would die, we are saying we WISH they would die...

    Spice (13) flagReport
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  • Source: https://tshirtdiplomacy.com/products/faster-than-light-faxes
    Spice (22) flagReport
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  • The analog phone line argument is moot with companies like Cisco offering Voip to analog adapters. I will not vouch for reliability, but they do work.

    Spice (3) flagReport
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  • Sometimes, when a technology just works, why change it?  

    Spice (8) flagReport
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  • Rockn wrote:

    The HIPAA argument is freaking ridiculous. A fax laying on top of a printer is somehow more secure than an email? Fax needs to die a brutal and ugly death.

    You need physical access to that fax laying on top of that printer.  There is no remote code one can execute so that they can get their hands on a digital copy of that ink+paper printout.  Put the fax machine in a locked closet allowing only those who need to and are allowed to see the information to have a key, and you're all set.

    Leave your email on the server and you simply have to hope that a new flaw in the super-high-tech firewall that you just installed doesn't leave the flaws in your email server vulnerable to attack....

    Spice (15) flagReport
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  • I was able to convince my 76-year-old owner that using an MFP was the way to go because of the cost savings of a telephone line. We migrated to eFax and print less faxes. We still need to send outbound faxes because some of our clients are old-school. In general, the process to send out is slightly more cumbersome. With instructions above our MFP, we're reducing our outbound fax issues.
    Spice (2) flagReport
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  • For us it's because some banks insist on using fax. We've found that US based companies use fax more than we do in the UK too, which seems counterintuitive.

    Spice (1) flagReport
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  • #11. People are stupid.

    Spice (17) flagReport
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  • cnicholsontech wrote:

    Rockn wrote:

    The HIPAA argument is freaking ridiculous. A fax laying on top of a printer is somehow more secure than an email? Fax needs to die a brutal and ugly death.

    Why not? The printer isn't in a public location. If you can get behind the desk at the doctors, there's plenty of info back there beyond one paper on a printer. 
    Sure it is when any Joe Schmo in the office can walk up to a printer and see Mary Jane's personal information. Public doesn't mean accessible to the general public not a member of the office. 
    Spice (4) flagReport
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  • It works, anyone can do it. You can control physical access to the device. Its essentially point to point.

    Secure email is costly proprietary morass (more ass) of different implementations. An unknown number of endpoints and gateways can siphon the data stream or outright store copies.

    We could as easily ask the question "Why Email refuses to die."

    Spice (3) flagReport
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  • Rockn wrote:

    The HIPAA argument is freaking ridiculous. A fax laying on top of a printer is somehow more secure than an email?

    Yes, because there's no way the front desk folks have insanely simple passwords or share their passwords with the entire staff. There's also no way those offices are using antiquated consumer-grade network hardware.

    What's funny about the fax argument is often times any sensitive data in the fax is entered in to the same systems that the email would be on, so unless you're completely segregated from the internet it's just a matter of keeping that info in a different bucket and hoping no one finds out. 

    While we're at it the secure email service in O365 is $2 per user a month and insanely easy to use, however it does require the recipient have a Microsoft account and those same front desk folks with the simple passwords have no clue how to explain that to the even less technically inclined dolts they're sending information to. So the fax will live on to terrorize support staff indefinitely.


    Spice (7) flagReport
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  • you want secure email?  https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/mt661609.aspx  Seems much more secure than that piece of paper sitting on a office fax machine for any employee or person in the office to see.  The more we support the dinosaur, the longer it lingers.

    Spice (5) flagReport
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  • 50/50 insurance companies, people don't want to change

    Spice (2) flagReport
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  • It's bizarre that everyone thinks most people use a dial-up fax. Any business of decent size uses a server or service for faxes. 
    So you have a computer digitizing an image, someone emailing (or printing) it to a fax server/service, it being transferred digitally over the internet (because that's how phone calls generally work now), etc.
    For much of it's "life" it's a fax in name only.  There are very few steps where it's analog anymore.
    Spice (10) flagReport
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  • Because Courts, Insurance Companies, and Hospitals.

    Spice (5) flagReport
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  • Rockn wrote:

    cnicholsontech wrote:

    Rockn wrote:

    The HIPAA argument is freaking ridiculous. A fax laying on top of a printer is somehow more secure than an email? Fax needs to die a brutal and ugly death.

    Why not? The printer isn't in a public location. If you can get behind the desk at the doctors, there's plenty of info back there beyond one paper on a printer. 
    Sure it is when any Joe Schmo in the office can walk up to a printer and see Mary Jane's personal information. Public doesn't mean accessible to the general public not a member of the office. 
    There's nothing stopping them from doing that now. They have shelves and shelves full of patient info. I'm just saying a paper on a printer is insignificant compared to everything else they already have access to. One could make the case that they shouldn't, but that is a separate issue.
    Spice (1) flagReport
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  • My opinion of what should be done to all fax machines....

    Spice (12) flagReport
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  • I find the sing song sound soothing and familiar.

    Spice (1) flagReport
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  • Rockn wrote:

    cnicholsontech wrote:

    Rockn wrote:

    The HIPAA argument is freaking ridiculous. A fax laying on top of a printer is somehow more secure than an email? Fax needs to die a brutal and ugly death.

    Why not? The printer isn't in a public location. If you can get behind the desk at the doctors, there's plenty of info back there beyond one paper on a printer. 
    Sure it is when any Joe Schmo in the office can walk up to a printer and see Mary Jane's personal information. Public doesn't mean accessible to the general public not a member of the office. 
    If you're actually HIPAA compliant, then either A) NOT any Joe Schmo in the office can walk up to said printer, or B) Any Joe Schmo in the office has clearance to view that information.
    Spice (7) flagReport
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  • My main issue with the 'privacy' thing with fax is that the vast majority of regular people are using PUBLIC fax machines (local office supply store) so the entire 'security' reason goes right out the window. Especially when nearly all modern fax machines SAVE incoming and outgoing documents (unless disabled). We have gotten used fax/copy machines that had a plethora of documents saved from the previous owners because that wasn't disable nor wiped before they sold it.

    I will concede that a properly secured fax machine (at both ends) is more secure than a standard plain text email, however that argument goes out the window the moment you use a secure email service. (which is faster, more reliable, more accurate and produces far better quality documents)

    Also we have soooooo many documents that are simply illegible due to being faxed back/forth several time to our customers that are using poor quality fax machines (all of ours are set to the highest quality and they still look like crap)

    As for price of fax vs secure mail .. our email filtering system comes with this functionality built in whereas we have to maintain separate/dedicated lines for our fax machines (one at each of our location)

    In this day and age using faxes is no more than a "We dont want to change / get with the times" mentality.

    Spice (3) flagReport
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  • I've worked in organizations that have fax capability but I have rarely supported it.  When it comes to relics of Technology if you choose to use it then you won't be receiving any support from me when and if it stops working out of general principal.

    At the end of the day, always know where the door is.

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  • *Knocking on wood*

    We just ditched our analog lines which were dedicated to fax machines.  So far, the fax machines are having no trouble using the lines converted by the VOIP server.

    Spice (1) flagReport
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  • We work with a lot of GPs and they prefer to use fax instead of emails.

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  • Having to adhere to HIPPA there are still faxes in the organization I work for.

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  • Still have to use them.

    Most government agencies use them, which necessitate my organization using it.

    Spice (1) flagReport
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  • #3 really burns my ass. I have hospitals that will take nothing but faxes because email is not secure. My question to their IT staff is, "so a fax is secure, right? What if I walk by your fax machine and grab the paper sitting there?" The response I get is this (how moronic is this?)' "We don't have a physical fax machine, the faxes are relayed via email". Uhhhh, what?

    Spice (6) flagReport
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  • I just threw out some old fax machines and crushed them in the dumpster....felt really nice.

    Spice (3) flagReport
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  • I have people tell me "Fax (fill in the blank) over and we'll get right on it."  I tell them "This is the 21st century - I don't have a fax machine.  Give me your email address and I'll send it right over."  Reasons 1-5 and 8-10 are utter BS.  For that matter, so is 7, but that's just government incompetence.  Number 6 is just greed, plain and simple - the technology to secure an email transmission end-to-end is old enough that it should be affordable for all.  In fact, clear text email shouldn't even be available by now.

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  • OJKid wrote:

    #3 really burns my ass. I have hospitals that will take nothing but faxes because email is not secure. My question to their IT staff is, "so a fax is secure, right?...

    When dealing with regulatory issues, it's usually beneficial to our sanity if we throw out logic.
    Spice (2) flagReport
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  • ElJosero wrote:

    Rockn wrote:

    The HIPAA argument is freaking ridiculous. A fax laying on top of a printer is somehow more secure than an email?

    Yes, because there's no way the front desk folks have insanely simple passwords or share their passwords with the entire staff. There's also no way those offices are using antiquated consumer-grade network hardware.

    What's funny about the fax argument is often times any sensitive data in the fax is entered in to the same systems that the email would be on, so unless you're completely segregated from the internet it's just a matter of keeping that info in a different bucket and hoping no one finds out. 

    While we're at it the secure email service in O365 is $2 per user a month and insanely easy to use, however it does require the recipient have a Microsoft account and those same front desk folks with the simple passwords have no clue how to explain that to the even less technically inclined dolts they're sending information to. So the fax will live on to terrorize support staff indefinitely.


    The HIPAA argument is valid. A random point-to-point FAX is secure, by definition. A random client-to-client email cannot be guaranteed to be so, by definition.

    Medicaid, Medicare, and every other agency in the world take FAXs. End of story.

    Medicaid: This is Bernadette. How may I frustrate you today?

    You: I need to send you, like, 400 forms every week. But rather than faxing them, I'd like to get you to open a "secure" email account. After you check that account daily, you'll need to print out the attachments and then forward them to the appropriate people. Unless you can convince all those other departments to create email accounts as well. And check them. And print them out. Oh, and you'll need to share that account and password with others in case you go on vacation or get fired.

    Medicaid: Uh-huh. Please hold. <click>

    Spice (5) flagReport
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  • Casey-SA wrote:

    Because Courts, Insurance Companies, and Hospitals.

    And government agencies like the BMV and Titles. And end users. We are a financing company in the commercial trucking industry. We have to deal with a lot of vehicle titles. There are still many motor vehicle agencies that won't send via email or receive via email, we must use fax. 

    Also, many of the owner/operators are on the road, and may not have access to Internet, or PCs or tablets. For them, stopping at an OfficeMax or UPS or somewhere that has a fax is a faster way of sending signed documents or other required information than finding an Internet cafe. Some are technology users, but many are not. So we have to provide ways for them to send us documents.

    I also agree with whomever said it's not that we think faxes will go away, it's that we WISH they would go away. 

    Spice (1) flagReport
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  • OJKid wrote:

    #3 really burns my ass. I have hospitals that will take nothing but faxes because email is not secure. My question to their IT staff is, "so a fax is secure, right? What if I walk by your fax machine and grab the paper sitting there?" The response I get is this (how moronic is this?)' "We don't have a physical fax machine, the faxes are relayed via email". Uhhhh, what?

    I could draw you a diagram, but I've got a few other things to do in Visio at this time.  But, basically,

    Your FAX machine establishes a connection with the hospital's (usually RightFAX) analog lines server (yeah, not necessarily end-to-end analog anymore, but that's the concept).   The FAX server e-mails the image to the person(s) mailbox associated with the DID number you dialed.  Since the mail server (and hospital network) is presumably secured and HIPAA-compliant, the image is considered secure traveling from the FAX server, to the Mail server, and to the User's computer.  If in fact the network is HIPAA-compliant, you're golden.   If you're not, you've got a mountain of OTHER issues to consider before worrying about the FAX transmission.

    So, what's the confusion ????

    VM

    p.s. I love the fact that government and others still support FAX technology because it allows me to hack their processes and procedures, when such subterfuge becomes necessary.....I've got stories, but sorry, no time today.....there are times when I choose to use e-mail, others when I would consider using "Secure e-mail" and instances when I refuse to use e-mail.   The more "tools" that I have available in my tooolbox, the more options that I can pursue.....

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    Spice (4) flagReport
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  • I know alot of people chirp about faxing,  but think about it in simple terms. Plug it in and start faxing. Done.

    Spice (1) flagReport
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  • RBO6036 wrote:

    I know alot of people chirp about faxing,  but think about it in simple terms. Plug it in and start faxing. Done.

    I hate fax about as much as the next guy, but at the end of the day, they are about that simple.  Plug it in, check for dial tone, move on with life.  I have 3 that I support, and my troubleshooting stops at "is there a dial tone?"  Anything more serious then that, it's a call to the support for the MFP, or the handy status sheet spits out "no answer" or some other actual useful error message.

    End of the day, I think I like Fax machines better then printers.  I didn't know that about me.

    Spice (3) flagReport
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  • There are a few of these reasons that don't even make sense.  Fax is dumb.

    BTW Fax will die.  It will not live forever.  It is simply waiting for the feet draggers to die first.
     
    Spice (1) flagReport
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  • I work at an ISP/ITSP, and we very, very, very badly want fax to just die already. It's the bane of our existence. 

    It never ceases to amaze me that people want to send documents with the single worst image resolution available today, convert that image into a 14.4 kbps data stream, convert it to sound, then convert that digital noise into data through a phone line that has been converted to VoIP, where it will then be converted back into sound to be transmitted at 14.4 kbps (at best!) over the Public Switched Telephone Network, then finally converted back into an image by a fax machine on the other end. In the process, it fails miserably about 1/3 of the time. 

    And then the customer blames us and our VoIP service, when they could just take a damn picture with their phone and send it directly as a text or e-mail, with at least 100 times the image clarity. Even my 75 year old father in law has a camera on his super basic phone now. Make! It! Die! Gah!

    Spice (8) flagReport
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  • I agree with Rockn! If using a fax service, then the fax becomes an email with an attached PDF anyway. Very false sense of security!!

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  • Robert5205 wrote:

    ElJosero wrote:

    Rockn wrote:

    The HIPAA argument is freaking ridiculous. A fax laying on top of a printer is somehow more secure than an email?

    Yes, because there's no way the front desk folks have insanely simple passwords or share their passwords with the entire staff. There's also no way those offices are using antiquated consumer-grade network hardware.

    What's funny about the fax argument is often times any sensitive data in the fax is entered in to the same systems that the email would be on, so unless you're completely segregated from the internet it's just a matter of keeping that info in a different bucket and hoping no one finds out. 

    While we're at it the secure email service in O365 is $2 per user a month and insanely easy to use, however it does require the recipient have a Microsoft account and those same front desk folks with the simple passwords have no clue how to explain that to the even less technically inclined dolts they're sending information to. So the fax will live on to terrorize support staff indefinitely.


    The HIPAA argument is valid. A random point-to-point FAX is secure, by definition. A random client-to-client email cannot be guaranteed to be so, by definition.

    Medicaid, Medicare, and every other agency in the world take FAXs. End of story.

    Medicaid: This is Bernadette. How may I frustrate you today?

    You: I need to send you, like, 400 forms every week. But rather than faxing them, I'd like to get you to open a "secure" email account. After you check that account daily, you'll need to print out the attachments and then forward them to the appropriate people. Unless you can convince all those other departments to create email accounts as well. And check them. And print them out. Oh, and you'll need to share that account and password with others in case you go on vacation or get fired.

    Medicaid: Uh-huh. Please hold. <click>

    "A random point-to-point FAX is secure, by definition." Only because it's defined as secure, not because it IS secure. 

    I'd bet lots of money that most of them go into a server and are emailed internally as PDFs - often to common (office) mailboxes or distribution lists. As for the concept of "print" - most all of your records are going to be electronic. Few agencies use paper. (I am amused by people printing things out JUST so they can fax them.)

    https://www.usfhealthonline.com/resources/healthcare/electronic-medical-records-mandate/

    Spice (3) flagReport
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  • I cringe when I hear a problem with any of my fax machines. Usually, the problem is on the other end. I wish we could somehow kill off every fax machine in a precision operation where all of the Fax machines just stop working all at once. 

    Once people realize that Email is significantly more secure and that even I have our fax forwarded to email (to save paper and be more secure), We can finally stop using this abomination and offense to the technology world we currently live in.

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  • Jack6865 wrote:

    I agree with Rockn! If using a fax service, then the fax becomes an email with an attached PDF anyway. Very false sense of security!!

    Working in insurance all our faxes are processed with a service. Incoming faxes become emails and outbound faxes are sent as emails. We don't mandate fax for our business model, but many agencies (our customers) still use it so we support it. It's been that way here long before I started, BTW.
    Spice (1) flagReport
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