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  • Sorry I dont have anything to add, but I mentioned this post to a co-worker and he said, "Spiceworks Autos". Had to share.

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  • We use ADP Dealer Services.  It's an ok system.  They have direct interfaces with all most all the manufactures.  Plus they've got a program for everything and then some.  The only other option out there I think would be Reynolds and Reynolds. 

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  • There are a few out there but ADP and Reynolds and Reynolds are the big 2.  We use ADP and with a few 3rd party add-in services it works quite well. We will also be getting ADPs VOIP system probably around the beginning of the year.  The phone system fully integrates to the DMS so with caller ID it pops up the customer and will have an idea of why they are calling since it will show if they were recently on the lot for a sales appointment or if we have thier car in our service department.  We currently are running 2 sites on this system.  One is a Thrifty used cars and new Mitsubishi the other is a new/used Toyota.

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  • ADP Dealer Services here too.  I find it has its days.  We are a 13 dealership setup selling just about everything.  Biggest complaint I have is turn around on new form creations.  Up to a week at times.  You are also locked into using their hardware (printers) if you want to use ADP invoicing.

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  • We use ADP Drive. Previously WebSuite and then just Reflections back in the day, and even further back to just the green screens :P

    I was hoping I'd find some others that use Spiceworks! I'm going to follow all of you. 

    Is anyone using the SCM program for their sales departments?

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  • We migrated from Reynolds to ADP.  The Reynolds company has changed considerably with the buyout from UCS.  The company structure went from client and employee centric to owner centric and lawsuit happy.  UCS was notorious for fine print contracts causing users a lot of grief and burned bridges with multiple dealerships/groups which is why there was a mass exodous when Reynolds went from publicly traded to privately held.  Unfortunately, Reynolds had a product better suited for the auto dealer industry, simple and to the point.  I had less complaints about Reynolds than ADP because there were less steps to perform the same function for parts and service personnel.  Reynolds was beginning to move in a direction that was not favorable in application development and turned out to be one of the worst places to work according to Fortune Magazine and that reflected when trying to get technical support.  We are also a large auto group and depend on integrating with manufacturers so ADP was our best bet from that standpoint.  I'm sure there are better solutions when you don't depend on manufacturers with limited selections of integrating DMS's.

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  • JustinCredible wrote:

    We use ADP Drive. Previously WebSuite and then just Reflections back in the day, and even further back to just the green screens :P

    I was hoping I'd find some others that use Spiceworks! I'm going to follow all of you. 

    Is anyone using the SCM program for their sales departments?

    I'm not sure what the SCM program is. Maybe you could elaborate a bit?

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  • Well, in the Trucks side of it anyways they have a program called SCM - Sales Contact Manager. It ties into the DMS so you can see how many trucks/parts/service sales have been made, all that kind of stuff right there. It is just ok... the integration with Outlook sucks. I think on the Cars side it's called CRM or Vehicle CRM something like that

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  • http://www.adpdealerservices.com/solutions/front-end/sales/adp-crm.aspx for ADP CRM and http://adpdealerservices.com/en/resources/industries-served/~/media/Files/PDF/Truck/Truck_SalesContactManagement_SO.ashx for SCM

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  • Thanks for the clarification...

    Unfortunately, we are a UCS/Reynolds customers, so ADP stuff doesn't really relate to me. 

    We do have a few different CRM, to deal with Customer Relations (for our sales departments), but we dont use the ones provided by Reynolds (cuz they really stink). We use a variety of them (VinSolutions seems to be the product of choice - made by our Management Team).

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  • We use ADP and ADP CRM for our dealer group of 25 dealers.  We ADP CRM a bit beyond it's capabilities.  It's a good product if installed and configured correctly.  Our biggest complaint has been that our employees seem to know more about the product than ADP staff and tech support do. It does the job quite well, we have used several other CRM solutions in the past and ADP CRM has been the best for getting the job done.

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  • We've had experience with both ADP and Reynolds and Reynolds.  In the end we went with Autostar's Fusion (http://autostarsolutions.com).  It's relatively inexpensive to get started and then you can add the modules you need as you go. It's roots are in the BHPH arena but they also do leasing, service, new cars, and automatically handle selling paper.

    Probably the best thing would have been to go to the conference at the beginning of October (sorry, I just stumbled upon this thread) The good thing is they are over in Dallas and there are a number of dealers that use their software in your area.  Give them a call.

    The big pro and con about their software is it is SaaS.  It is all hosted on server banks at the planet that everyone RDPs into (and along with that come all of the inherent "features" of Windows Terminal Server) . Early on there were glitches and issues, and lately there have been growing pains but we have been with it for 5 (or maybe 6 now) years and the majority of the issues have been ironed out. They have a good team that will handle the transfer of the DMS.

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  •  

    RickM wrote:

    We use ADP and ADP CRM for our dealer group of 25 dealers.  We ADP CRM a bit beyond it's capabilities.  It's a good product if installed and configured correctly.  Our biggest complaint has been that our employees seem to know more about the product than ADP staff and tech support do. It does the job quite well, we have used several other CRM solutions in the past and ADP CRM has been the best for getting the job done.

    Rick,

    Have you transitioned your Infiniti store onto ADP, or are you still using AS400/InfinitiNet? We are trying to decide what we are going to move to, as InfinitiNet is supposed to be going away by the end of next summer (or they keep saying that).

     

    Thanks,

    Levi

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  • The one thing that keeps us married to ADP is that our manufacturer, Navistar, has some tight interation with the ADP DMS. There are other systems Navistar works with, but ADP I think has the most integration. That and having to retrain 120 people... yayyy.. not fun. For the most part Drive works alright.   

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  • We use DealerTrack (the DMS formerly known as Arkona).  We use it for all four of our locations, which include 8 franchises and a stand alone used car lot.

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  •  

    scarroll wrote:

    We use DealerTrack (the DMS formerly known as Arkona).  We use it for all four of our locations, which include 8 franchises and a stand alone used car lot.

    Do you have any issues with latency? We use Dealertrack at one of our stores for e-contracting, and sometimes it is mega slow. Another concern I have is that it is a hosted solution. What if your internet goes down? How are backups handled? What is their support like?

     

    Thanks for the input!

    Levi

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  • The internet issue with a hosted solutions is a very important one.  In our case we use endian FW with a dedicated circuit to the internet as our primary and a cable internet connection as a backup with automatic failover.  The FW is setup with QoS to give the RDP priority and and automatically handle the failover within a minute.  Our circuit cut out once but has been solid so far in over a year. We've been happy with it.

    Also, the policy routing rules allow us to route our time sensitive traffic (read low latency) over the dedicated circuit and send web browsing over the cable connection so we have better allocation of our resources.

    Major point to keep in mind when using hosted solutions.  It's not so much bandwidth you are concerned with but latency.  Everybody gets hung up on the flash of bandwidth but what you are trying to accomplish is getting drops of water sent through the pipe like bullets, not fill a fire truck.  It's not the size of the pipe/bandwidth (Mb/s) but the speed of the pipe/latency (ms round trip)

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  • Hi Levi,

    Have you made the change yet? Just thought I would let you know I can offer my support and knowledge to assist with your decision making. I work with a company called COMSOL as a specialist adviser which currently services the Australasian market in regard to DMS, since I cannot offer our particular package due to your location I am more than happy to provide you with information regarding what options you have available to you and the pro's and con's of such. However in order to provide accurate and relevant info I have found it is best to understand your perspective and elements of the software which you hold in high regard. What is the size of your company? number of users? Usually for an import franchise I would recommend assimilating your clients software package if appropriate, due to simplification and streamlining of ordering etc. From time to time however this is not practicable.

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  • Reynolds and Reynolds. And one location acquired a few years ago uses ADP.

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  • Colin, out of the two (RR & ADP) which do you prefer? We went on ADP a few years back and are running DRIVE and its taken a while but we are used to the system and all its defects.. well most of them. Our main issues with it is how some things just flat do not work, how a good 80% of the system is just a pretty face on a telnet session and the inconsistencies between the different applications (Sales/Service/Parts/Acct).

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  • I'm glad to see this thread still lives on!

    @AKSales:

    Would you mind listing out some pros and cons of ADP? We have a few people in our environment that really want to migrate away from ReyRey Power (formerly UCS) to ADP DRIVE. I'm still pretty hesitant, mostly because it looks like they bought a bunch of different companies and tried to make everything work together. I saw a demo at NADA in 2013 and I personally wasn't too thrilled.

     

    However, I am very interested in the Product that Dominion Deal Solutions is piloting right now, called Dominion DMX. It's a DMS based on Micorsoft AX (uses MS Greatplains for accounting and Dynamics for CRM). It looks very promising and I just hope they can hurry up and get it out into the market.

     

    Cheers!

    Levi

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  • Coming to this conversation a bit late, but I would avoid going from Reynolds to ADP Drive.  

    Our dealership made the transition about 6 years ago and it was the biggest mistake we ever made.  Reynolds is an accounting based system that is very stable and consistent.  ADP is anything but stable and consistent.  We started with Websuite and are now on the latest version of Drive.  We had to have ADP install a ramgate (prevents the system from getting patches unless I approve them)  We were getting stability issues caused by patches for software we weren't even using.  (They patched something with ADP trucks, and we don't use that part of the system)  Their support is terrible... we have literally had to teach their support people about their own products.  We were going to make the transition from ADP back to Reynolds, but at the very last minute ADP made a deal that we couldn't walk away from.  Typical ADP software with glitches and errors.  Stay with Reynolds!!!  Avoid ADP at all costs.

    I can echo what AKSales has said... we have the same problems.  I love how ADP identifies defects... but doesn't fix them, or they call them PCR (*product change requests) and they never get resolved.  ADP is a joke.

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  • @Capt. Obvious Thanks for the input! We are starting our process very soon. We have a meeting scheduled with AutoMate in a few weeks, and will be scheduling meetings with DealerTrack, ADP, and Dominion DMX in the coming weeks/months.

    Keep the opinions coming!

    Levi

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  • Let me know what Dominion DMX is like... we use their Autobase product now.  Again, would love to get out from under ADP and move to something more stable.  Microsoft Dynamic AX is supposed to be bulletproof.

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  • I actually just have a question for the experts. I am trying to learn about the different DMS systems available, specifically how they link to the credit and lending sides of the transaction.  I read quite a bit on the Dealer Track and ADP websites about how they both offer features for credit verification, or how they each can integrate with the other for this step.  Was this something that used to be done separately? Like, you would have ADP for a DMS system, but then use Dealer Track for credit verification?  Why would anyone use both, or am I misunderstanding what this integration means?  What was the "old" way of qualifying a buyer (and then finding a lender), and how have new DMS platform innovations changed this process? 

    Any thoughts you could offer would be greatly appreciated!!

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  • lorryanne,

    For the most part, 3rd party integration means they share an API that talks back and forth between systems.  Some DMS systems. ADP for example will run a routine that passes information back to dealertrack to start inquiries and then pulls the outcome back into ADP.  Many dealers are using tools like Dealersocket as a CRM, Desking tool and even F&I processes then pushes the accounting and vehicle record updates back into ADP.

    I guess to make a short answer long, the integrations possible are much more seamless and the need to break out of one system and into another are going away.

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  • Capt. Obvious wrote:

    Let me know what Dominion DMX is like... we use their Autobase product now.  Again, would love to get out from under ADP and move to something more stable.  Microsoft Dynamic AX is supposed to be bulletproof.

    We sat through a demo of DMX and is wasn't very awesome. Mostly because Dominion did a terrible job of actually demonstrating the system. Their engineers were doing the demo, and they got caught up on little things and didn't focus on the larger picture.

    The platform itself looks awesome, but since they literally have zero dealers on it... we had to pass (for now).

    I'm sure we'll be looking at it again in a few years, but for now we'll probably be stuck with ADP :'(

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  • levi.lohrman said:

    "I'm sure we'll be looking at it again in a few years, but for now we'll probably be stuck with ADP :'("

    There's no reason to be stuck with ADP...Reynolds, DealerTrack, or Dominion...

    Take a look at AutoSoft.  AutoSoft has been in business for over 25 years, and has over 2,000 dealerships running in North America, with over 30,000 users.

    Hate being tied into long term agreements? AutoSoft is a month to month agreement.

    Also announced just today, a money back satisfaction guarantee!  Details here http://www.autosoft-asi.com/guaranteed I don't think any other vendor offers this.

    Want a vendor with an API that plays nice with third parties?  AutoSoft

    Just sayin', the only reason you get "stuck" is by choosing to get stuck.

    Full disclosure.  I sell AutoSoft.  While I may be biased, everything I state above is true.

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  • Just wanted to add something.  If anyone is using ADP and they try to sell your dealership "Service Edge"... say no!  

    This product would be awesome if it was quick and worked properly, but it isn't and it doesn't.  We've had it since Oct 2013 and we have had nothing but problems.  We're currently not paying our monthly bill because of it.  Support has been helpful with a lot of the issues (most were setups done wrong because we and the installer didn't understand the product) but the speed issue remains and they continue to blame our network and PC's.  Today we had an independent 3rd party look at our network and our PC's and they concluded the issues are with ADP and the software itself.  I really don't want anyone else suffering with this product at this time.   They continue to sell it (despite knowing these issues) and other dealers are experiencing the same problems (not just our company)  Rumor has it, there might be a class action lawsuit being looked at over this.  

    If you have questions about this, please ask away in PM or by adding a comment in this thread.  

    If you're a service edge user, let me know what your experience is like.  

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  • Thanks for the heads up. Looking at the ADP Service Connect Community it sounds like you are not alone. Our Sales Rep tried to sell us on it earlier this year and I flat said no way, they have a hard time getting their regular service programs to run correctly let alone a hosted integration.

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  • I haven't read all the responses, but I'm the IT Director for a dealership group in Arizona and New Mexico.  4+ years ago we contracted with Arkona/DealerTrack.  While no DMS is perfect, I've dealt with ADP, Reynolds and Reynolds, AutoSoft International and DealerTrack and from an IT perspective, DealerTrack is BY FAR the easiest to deal with.  The price is much cheaper than ADP and R&R and the best part, NO ONSITE HARDWARE!!  It's all hosted, so you need to have a very reliable internet connection.  At our main locations we have fiber and the others have bonded T-1's eventually going to fiber, but it will work with any internet connection of descent speed.

    DT Operates predominantly via VPN, which means your company and DT will have a connection.  If your IP schema is already used, you'll have to change it to one that none of their dealership customers is currently using.

    Thus far, the only real drawback to DT that I've found is their limited printer compatibility.  They seem to be very Lexmark network laser centric, but in my case, that wasn't bad because I'm a Lexmark fan and am very familiar.

    DT's tech support is pretty good, but some of their entry level techs have limited knowledge and are trained not to escalate to more qualified people unless the customer demands it.

    All in all, they're the best I've used and their price is awesome.

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  • Stay with the best. I prefer R & R, ADP is up there too. Dealer track is a distant third. Remember there are years of experience tied up with employees that have learned to work with the big 2. Dealer Track came in with an estimated 2 million dollars per year savings quote for seven lines. and multi dealerships the bean counters fell for it.. All the people working for me will be retired or dead before they ever get caught up. Instantly over a dozen people quit over the change. ( sadly the dealerships they went to might change to DT.  )

    R and R may have issues with its way of doing business but it WORKS !!!. You get what you pay for. It is called the price of doing business.

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  • I'm trying to PM capt obvous but since I'm such a new member it won't let me PM yet ( it says I have to be at a higher level) Anyways, interested in hearing more about Service Edge experience. We are interested in it and it sounds like your worst nightmare.... !

    Thanks.

    Christie

    Christie.kane@earnhardt.com

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  • Our dealership has been on DSI or Dealer Solutions for a little over 20 years.  There have been ups and downs over the years but they have as of late seriously failed to keep up.  I'm currently in the market so I read through this entire thread with great interest.  DSI is becoming irrelevant and somewhat of a burden to our company.  The owner is a super nice guy and when I email him directly I seem to be able to get things done.  Otherwise their customer support is the worst!  There's nothing like getting an email back from a tech who I asked to solve a problem for me which says, "this problem happened because you did something and broke it."  First of all I don't even know how to get into the system he was talking about and I'm the only one here with tech knowledge.  

    I know that any switch is going to suck for the whole dealership for a solid year but we can't keep going the way we are.  We have two locations, one is Peterbilt and the other is International.  We also have Paclease and Idealease locations as well.  I gathered from the above thread that Reynolds is the better choice but do any of you know about PACCAR and Navistar integration?  

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  • Those are both large truck brands and to be honest, I've never had to deal with them.  I think the software is similar, but I couldn't advise you on that.

    **UPDATE**  CDK continues to make changes to Edge.  All of our tablets just stopped working the other day, and apparently they changed the app again.  They are modifying the URL that the app points to and of course didn't think to communicate that change PRIOR to making it.  A CDK networking person will be advising me what information to modify in our firewall so that the app will work again.

    The former CDK contract person (our Mercedes Service Director) is the only one using Service Edge at 100% in his store.  Typical complaint is the speed... it's still a dog in a horse race.  The other parts departments have mostly turned away from it.  We have a CDK specialist onsite this week helping to better utilize the system and so far she's done a good job of blowing smoke up everyone's behind. 

    I've been contacted by a few other people about this product and I'm amazed to hear that CDK is still LYING to customers about the requirements for this software.  It has a pretty obvious memory leak that causes it to cripple any computer it's left up on for more than a few hours.  The only tablet it's usable on is the iPad Air 2 or newer... anything below that will be painful.  8Gb of memory is the minimum spec for any PC that's using Service Edge and to be honest, 16Gb is the min we're purchasing for the time being.  I have technician pc's with specs equal to or better than our accounting depts.  Overall, same old CDK.  I would still advise against purchasing this product.  However, if CDK is going to give it to you... and you have the hardware and infrastructure in place it might be worthwhile to try it.   

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  • Capt,

     Thanks for the heads up I know our Sales Rep is pushing Edge pretty hard. We struggle with the basic apps in DRIVE working correctly and you would think these add on applications could have better integration I mean come on they are integrating with themselves. Every time there is a update to where CDK looks for data (drive login page / desktop background / service connect / etc) it is like pulling teeth to get the answers to fix our firewall. I dont know if you have tried it but there is a program that has helped us quite a bit, Fiddler (http://www.telerik.com/download/fiddler). You can have that running in the background on a PC and it will give you some pretty good info on the sites / addresses that that specific computer is trying to hit. Anyway good luck and keep fighting the good fight.

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  • We use ADP Drive (now CDK) in conjunction with DealerMine CRM software. We are currently evaluating Xtime as well. I have previously used earlier versions of ADP as well as Reynolds and Renolds ERA software

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  • Dan,

     How do you like DealerMine? We are currently using CDK CRM & DRIVE and it works ok but it is kinda amazing how two products from the same vendor can have so many incompatibilities / communication issues. What made you go with DealerMine?

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  • Dealertrack DMS currently deciding if moving to DMS 2.0 makes sense.  Anybody survive a DMS 2.0 conversion with Dealertrack?

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  • I guess I'll update this thread with our experiences thus far:

    We decided to switch from ReyRey Power (what used to be UCS) to CDK Drive. When we signed the contract we were promised the world... so much for that.

    We were told we had to migrate all of our stores on the same day. If you are a multi-store group, DO NOT migrate all your stores at the same time. HUGE mistake. They don't have enough people on the ground to make it all work. Their behind-the-scenes people don't always know what they are doing (so you can't sell cars for most of the day), and (of course) most of the people they send to your site are just warm bodies. Seriously... it's like this was the first transition they had ever done. Like CDK had them sit through a webinar and they shipped them out to Texas for their first install. I had people asking how open the application... these were CDK's installers.... Crazy!

    Beyond that, it took them forever to get everything fully switched over (probably like 2 weeks). It's like they didn't start working on our project until a few days before. 

    We have been underwhelmed by the product and the support.

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  • Capt. Obvious wrote:

    Those are both large truck brands and to be honest, I've never had to deal with them.  I think the software is similar, but I couldn't advise you on that.

    **UPDATE**  CDK continues to make changes to Edge.  All of our tablets just stopped working the other day, and apparently they changed the app again.  They are modifying the URL that the app points to and of course didn't think to communicate that change PRIOR to making it.  A CDK networking person will be advising me what information to modify in our firewall so that the app will work again.

    The former CDK contract person (our Mercedes Service Director) is the only one using Service Edge at 100% in his store.  Typical complaint is the speed... it's still a dog in a horse race.  The other parts departments have mostly turned away from it.  We have a CDK specialist onsite this week helping to better utilize the system and so far she's done a good job of blowing smoke up everyone's behind. 

    I've been contacted by a few other people about this product and I'm amazed to hear that CDK is still LYING to customers about the requirements for this software.  It has a pretty obvious memory leak that causes it to cripple any computer it's left up on for more than a few hours.  The only tablet it's usable on is the iPad Air 2 or newer... anything below that will be painful.  8Gb of memory is the minimum spec for any PC that's using Service Edge and to be honest, 16Gb is the min we're purchasing for the time being.  I have technician pc's with specs equal to or better than our accounting depts.  Overall, same old CDK.  I would still advise against purchasing this product.  However, if CDK is going to give it to you... and you have the hardware and infrastructure in place it might be worthwhile to try it.   

    We have the same problem with the memory leak. All of our PCs have a minimum of 8GB but most have 16GB (which is incredibly dumb... we aren't running AutoCAD folks). Their product is absolutely trash (as far as the application coding is concerned).

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  • On the CRM side, has anyone here used Drive360? I only ask because they have an office in the same building as mine and talking to their devs it sounds like they do some interesting stuff.

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  • levi.lohrman wrote:

    Capt. Obvious wrote:

    Those are both large truck brands and to be honest, I've never had to deal with them.  I think the software is similar, but I couldn't advise you on that.

    **UPDATE**  CDK continues to make changes to Edge.  All of our tablets just stopped working the other day, and apparently they changed the app again.  They are modifying the URL that the app points to and of course didn't think to communicate that change PRIOR to making it.  A CDK networking person will be advising me what information to modify in our firewall so that the app will work again.

    The former CDK contract person (our Mercedes Service Director) is the only one using Service Edge at 100% in his store.  Typical complaint is the speed... it's still a dog in a horse race.  The other parts departments have mostly turned away from it.  We have a CDK specialist onsite this week helping to better utilize the system and so far she's done a good job of blowing smoke up everyone's behind. 

    I've been contacted by a few other people about this product and I'm amazed to hear that CDK is still LYING to customers about the requirements for this software.  It has a pretty obvious memory leak that causes it to cripple any computer it's left up on for more than a few hours.  The only tablet it's usable on is the iPad Air 2 or newer... anything below that will be painful.  8Gb of memory is the minimum spec for any PC that's using Service Edge and to be honest, 16Gb is the min we're purchasing for the time being.  I have technician pc's with specs equal to or better than our accounting depts.  Overall, same old CDK.  I would still advise against purchasing this product.  However, if CDK is going to give it to you... and you have the hardware and infrastructure in place it might be worthwhile to try it.   

    We have the same problem with the memory leak. All of our PCs have a minimum of 8GB but most have 16GB (which is incredibly dumb... we aren't running AutoCAD folks). Their product is absolutely trash (as far as the application coding is concerned).

    Oh man, we just decided last week to pull this product out of 2 of my 3 stores.  1 store the wireless has never worked with it (CDK installed that also, just a couple months prior to Edge), 1 store we can't get it to work from start to finish, and the third it works probably 80% of the time with speed issues still.  We got this product installed in August and have had the trainers out 3 or 4 times now, each time they leave knowing and even admitting something is not right but they can't tell us what.  They kept telling me that our 20/20 fiber line wasn't enough so I upgraded to 50/50 and they were still trying to blame that even though we still haven't even peaked it over 25.  CDK is amazing at selling this product and then not being able to deliver something that works.  All in all they won't take blame that their product is just terrible and our "pod" that it is stored on is down at least once a week.  

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  • We use Reynolds Power system and also Reynolds for our CRM. We may move away from them when our contract is up in 3 years or so due to the cost, but the product is solid. They are also very rigid in their software development and business practices.

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  • Whats the best DMS for used trucks dealership?

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  • izaakrach I'm curious to know what DMS you decided to go with.  I work for a semi-trailer dealership and we use Karmak Fusion right now, which has been anything but stellar.  We just had a meeting with a rep from DSI, and it seems like a step in the right direction but far from perfect. 

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  • tmurdock87 - If all you sell is trailers you might take a look at DealerVu.  It is a simple yet solid system for sales, service, and parts.  Accounting is solid; but, it requires someone with accounting knowledge to do it.  You might think that's a crazy statement; however, some systems are designed that once they are set up they are mostly idiot proof.  Accountants aren't necessarily fond of this functionality.%uFEFF

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  • We are a very small independent dealership looking to add a DMS. I used ADP at my old dealership but we are much smaller here. Any ideas on an inexpensive yet reliable DMS? (I know that's like asking for an inexpensive, low mileage 4x4) I've had some quotes and we would like to integrate our service department, which I'm having a hard time finding one that does that without spending tens of thousands of dollars.

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